Does The "New Covenant" Override "Old Testament Barbarity"?

I have spent a bit of time in the past trying to debate on the question of whether the New Covenant overrides Old Testament barbarity. Few Christians today would call for adulterers to be stoned to death and so forth, even though this is explicitly called for in Leviticus:

However is this because they now follow a more enlightened interpretation of the bible, or is it because they are ignoring what the bible actually says? For those not familiar with the New Covenant here is the Wikipedia page on the subject:

The idea in a nutshell (as I understand it) is that Jesus brought a new message from God that encouraged tolerance and forgiveness. The story of how Jesus rescued the adulteress who was to be stoned is one of the most well known bible stories, and seems to support this idea. Incidentally, some have questioned whether this story should even be in the bible:

However this story is open to interpretation, as so much in the bible is, it is not a clear rejection of the punishments called for in the Old Testament. In fact, Jesus is quoted as saying he does not oppose the old laws:

https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

The conclusion I have come to is that it is simply not clear beyond doubt that the New Covenant overrides Old Testament barbarity, and so I believe the bible is very open to interpretation by the believers. What do you think?

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Where to begin? First, “Let HIM who is without sin …”. Not “Let he …”. But that’s not just your error. Bad grammar is now normal with professional writers. (And incidentally, it’s not an accurate quotation even when the grammar is corrected.)

Next. You actually believe the stories of the “New Testament”? Hard to throw off a Christian upbringing entirely? (It is possible to discern some teachings of the “Jesus” figure that were very likely to be genuine - those that go against the big message, sayings that must have been too well known to omit.)

Next. Many of the laws laid down in the five books of Moses are cruel and many are absurd. They have not been practiced for two thousand years. A lot of them were connected with the Temple, which was destroyed by Titus. The idea behind the Laws of Moses was that justice - or “righteousness” - was the supreme value in human life. Time has changed opinion of what is and is not just, but the idea is a good one. Freedom is only possible under the rule of law. The Framers of the US Constitution fully appreciated that.

St. Paul, the author of Christianity, hated the Law. He had been convicted under it for some unnamed sexual crime. He wanted it abolished. Christianity was a revolution against Judaism. “Love” and “forgiveness” instead of justice. “Resist not evil”! That’s why it is absurd to talk about “the Judeo-Christian tradition”. The Church Fathers found they could not do without law entirely, so adopted the “moral laws” of Judaism - the not very helpful ten commandments. (Only a few of them make sense as law, and those were not originated by the compilers of the bible.)

Finally (for the moment), please read my essays on Pages - to be found in the margin of our website - collectively titled “The Birth and Early History of Christianity”.

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That’s not my error at all, you’re quoting from the link I included.

There’s nothing at all in the post to indicate that I believe any of the stories in the bible, period, and obviously I don’t, I’m an atheist! :slightly_smiling_face: I think you’re reading the links I included as if they were my writing perhaps? I’m just trying to outline what the debate is about here.

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Your “New Covenant” link doesn’t produce a quotation. It’s a mess.

In any case, Wikipedia is not an authority on the history of religions.

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By all means share some better links and I will update the post. We do need an introduction to the New Covenant for the debate though, I’m not sure it’s a concept that everyone is familiar with, especially atheists.

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Please look at what is in the “New Covenant” rectangle.

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Here is the link to an article that makes all clear:

https://theatheistconservative.com/the-birth-and-early-history-of-christianity/

By the way - do you think the Roman method of execution - crucifixion - was less cruel, less barbarous, than stoning?

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It is an entirely Christian idea that there was a “New Covenant”.

To speak of it is to believe a story of the “New Testament”.

(No, the bad grammar was not yours. Sorry I implied that it was. But you quoted it without correction.)

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This is an interesting topic. I think the New Testamemt writers were definitely “overriding” the Old Testament law, which did help bring religion into a less barbarous, more “enlightened” era.
Of course, that did cause a dillemma for believers, trying to reconcile the contradiction of the “Word of God” supposedly being unchanging, with the changes his “Son” obviously made! Theologians finally came up with “Dispensations” - who knew?
Mohammed plagiarized heavily from both old and new testaments, but unfortunately kept all the barbaric parts. So it does make Islam, as you pointed out, a blueprint for a barbaric despotism.
Plus, the Enlightenment itself, which further moderated the “Judeo-Christian tradition”, seems to have bypassed the Muslim tradition.

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I prefer to leave such debates to religious scholars and focus more on the practical ramifications of these religious texts. You are absolutely correct that the Bible is very open to interpretation by believers, but I would extend that to include all religious texts, to a greater or lesser extent. I’ll go further and extend it to even non-religious texts, as we have all seen how our Constitution has been misinterpreted to mean what those in power wish it to mean.

There is a strong tendency by those who hold or seek power to use authoritative texts to support their actions. They casually disregard portions of these texts which contradict their actions, and cherry-pick only those portions which support them. When necessary, they will happily adopt an interpretation of a passage that clearly strays far from the original meaning, using elaborate and convoluted logic to explain why that text doesn’t mean what it seems to mean, but rather what it “really means”.

Although the majority of contemporary mainstream Christians reject the literal application of Old Testament law and cite this supposed New Covenant to justify that rejection, those passages are still present in the Bible. They have historically been used to justify atrocities, and they are still used by more extreme sects to justify morally reprehensible beliefs. My disdain for the Christian Bible is every bit as strong as my disdain for the Quran. Yes, the Quran and the various Hadith are more explicit in the punishments that they dictate for various offenses, but I see this as a matter of degree; when interpretation is considered, there is little difference. A more important distinction, I think, is the Quran’s call to advance the spread of Islam through warfare.

Both Christianity and Islam adjure their adherents to spread their faith and to convert non-believers. The Christian Bible generally advocates a more peaceful approach to this, although it has certainly been used as a justification for expansion through warfare (the Spanish Conquistadors come to mind). By contrast, the Quran and the various Hadith openly espouse a more militant approach.

Western analysts use the terms Islamism, Militant Islam, and Political Islam to describe those movements which embrace and promote the use of force to subjugate non-believers and expand Islamic power. Political Islam does not distinguish between religious and secular authority; to their thinking, they are one and the same. The goal of Islamism is to establish a Caliphate, within which Sharia law is the ultimate authority. Because their religious texts explicitly support such a position, it is easier for Islamists than for Christians to justify militant expansion. This is not to say that Christians cannot and have not used the Bible to justify that sort of thing, but they do have to work a bit harder to interpret their scripture to support it.

The leaders and to a great extent the citizens of moderate Islamic (as opposed to Islamist) nations generally reject Islamism. Yes, this requires that they conveniently ignore significant portions of the Quran, but we’ve already discussed how readily those in power pick and choose which texts to cite. In this, nations like the UAE can be compared to Christians who conveniently ignore the more brutal portions of Leviticus.

My bottom line, I suppose, is that scholarly discussion of the legitimacy of a New Covenant is the purview of religious scholars. As an atheist, I know that those in power will use whatever portions of the Bible they wish to justify their actions, so such distinctions have little practical value.

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I agree with Billy that this is really a question for theologians and other interested religious people. Whether it’s a waste of time for them is their concern, but I wonder why an unbeliever would be curious about it. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? It’s an unanswerable question because we could never muster enough angels to find out.

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Some comments suggest that the commenter actually thinks that Christianity was less cruel than ancient Judaism. Not so. The “new covenant” had nothing to do with legal punishments. It meant that belief in J.C. replaced the Law. It meant “redemption” from sin - by “the grace of Christ Jesus”. He “died” to save mankind from the taint of original sin, but people, including Christians, could still go to hell for all eternity if they were not saved by his “grace”. (Later Catholicism reluctantly added the possibility of redemption by works, but the major Protestant doctrines stuck to “predestination” - meaning nothing you do can change your ultimate fate decided by Jesus before you were born.) Christianity’s history is bloody and cruel. Christians skinned Hypatia alive. Christians burnt thousands of people at the stake. Christians routinely tortured heretics. Christians sacked Christian Constantinople. Christian anathematizing of the Jews led to the Holocaust. If Christianity continues, since the Enlightenment tamed it, to claim that it is gentle, merciful, kind, a religion of love, what it is actually continuing is simply its traditional hypocrisy.

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Christianity shaped human history for two thousand years. It cannot be dismissed as a niche interest for believers and theologians. It is the history that needs to be known. All that needs to be known of the theology is that it is absurd. All theology is absurd, and Christian theology is the most absurd. But try to understand the present without knowing anything of the past? Try to understand the past without noticing that it is a story of religious conflict?
Atheism dismisses belief in the supernatural. It cannot pretend that religion is irrelevant to our knowledge and understanding of our world.

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I guess my comment suggested that Christianity was less cruel than ancient Judaism.
Your right that it wasn’t less cruel in practice, because Christians interpreted it in a way that allowed them to practice cruelty, but it did at least in “letter” abolish some barbaric commandments.
For example, rhe command to stone adulterers was negated (and by implication, heretics, etc).
It also did away with animal sacrifice.
It commanded “love your enemies” and “turn the other cheek”, rather than the O.T. commands to wipe out entire tribes of pagans.
But as you point out, the God of the New Testament still sent people to hell, and Christians did barbaric things such as murdering heretics anyway, regardless of J.C.'s example.

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I agree, and I hope that my comment was not taken to mean that atheists should not study or concern themselves with religion. We should, since religion plays a significant cultural role. My comment was only that the specific question – whether the so-called New Covenant invalidated the Law of Moses – was more suited for theologians. To me, it’s akin to a discussion of who is stronger, The Hulk or Superman; both are fictitious characters, so the correct answer is, “whichever the writer of that story needs to be stronger to advance the plot”.

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Here in the UK we have a very rapidly growing Muslim population. The last time I looked 10 % of children in the UK were being born to Muslim parents, and Mohammed (when the various spellings are included) already had become the most popular name for boys born in the UK some time ago. If the current trends continue, and right now there is no reason to believe they will not, then the UK will become a Muslim majority country before the end of the century. We have a Mayor of London who is a Muslim and a Prime Minister who is descended from Muslims on his father’s side. We also have a Muslim Health Secretary as well, although his agenda, and that of our PM, seems to have nothing at all to do with our health.

Everywhere in the world where Muslims are in the majority I see persecution of minorities. Atheist bloggers have been hacked to death in broad daylight in Bangladesh (once described as a “moderate” Muslim country) for example. We have seen the Charlie Hebdo attacks in France, and many other violent attacks, clearly it is becoming increasingly dangerous to talk about Islam in Western Europe.

There was a time when I too was happy to leave religious questions to theologians, but now I find that a tyrannical religious belief system is rapidly growing in the nation in which I was born, and so the truth about religious beliefs has become a major concern for me. The question in particular that I’m asking here is very relevant to the rise of Islam as well, because apologists for Islam will very often use the Old Testament barbarity as an excuse for waving away concerns about Islam.

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Yes, its been studied, and there’s a percentage of Muslim population that when reached, spells doom for the country they inhabit. (I can’t remember the percentage, 20%, possibly).
At the rate they are being imported into the West, we are going to reach that percentage before they have time to assimilate, much less “evolve” into a civilized state, which could take centuries.

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I’ve read that now, a fascinating read, thanks.

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We will be the ones doing the assimilating, in fact we already are, because people are increasingly inclined to self-censor. I have seen even the most outspoken critics of religions become more careful about what they say when they are in conversation with the followers of Islam.

As for reforming this religion, as I’ve commented before I see no hope of this religion ever being reformed. My reasoning is very simple - at the heart of the religion is the story of a man who used violence and deception to become powerful, committed at least one war crime (in modern parlance), justified endless war against the disbelievers, and married a six year old child, among other things. This coupled with the fact that a core belief in Islam, written in the Koran, is that Mohammed’s life is a beautiful example of a life for Muslims to follow, makes it impossible for this religion to be reformed in any meaningful sense. If you accept that core premise then you have embraced immorality.

[33:21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0006%3Asura%3D33%3Averse%3D21

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What do you make of the quote from Matthew 5-17 in my post? It seems at odds with the story of the adulteress to me.

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