If the US wars against Russia

[Jeanne]

Exactly, Liz. Thank you, once again for pointing that out.

Now, you all remember Aleksandr Dugin, right? Putin is also making a similar point as his to the Russian people. Do his people believe him? Do they believe Dugin? How many people are required to agree with their supreme leaders before their bidding is done? How are we doing with that?

This is from December 2022:

Either we win, or the world will be destroyed: Putin's prominent ally

Putin and Dugin are not our friends, nor are they believers in what we consider to be traditionalism. They are Traditionalists. Dugin’s followers believe as do the Twelvers (Islamic militant zealots…the Mahdi) followers; the world will be saved only after it is bathed in blood and the true rulers arise to make the world good. The definition of “good” and “saved” may differ from apocalyptic group to apocalyptic group, but the essence is bathe the world in blood, so our side can rule, because the other is evil.

In that case, what does Russia have to lose to Putin’s and Dugin’s way of thinking? What does Xi think? What does the Supreme Leader of Iran think?

What do the Left and the WEF think? War is the Great Resetter and a World War would just help it along ever faster, right?

So, speaking of China, how dare the US and its allies tell Xi that he better not help Putin or there will be hell to pay? And all the while they are helping Zelensky. And, we are placing troops in Taiwan to train and bolster their fighting spirit, while Taiwan is sending troops to the US to train for war. But Xi better not help Russia and Putin or Biden will be pissed.

This whole mess is ludicrous. I remember when Dugin’s daughter was murdered, and I thought how a little thing similar to this brought on the first world war. And, I thought how I would not have been surprised to find that Dugin had his daughter murdered so that it would start something, which might lead to a world war and the Armageddon that Dugin so desired.

At the end of that war, the Leftist Elites rearranged geographic boundaries to suit themselves and give the West more control over the other. They pissed a lot of people off. They are still pissed off. Are they some of the pissed off people, who desire the destruction of the West?

Gotta go…things to do. Carry on!

[jbecker]

Does he say anything that puts any blame at all on Putin?

[Liz]

The point is not whether “Putin is to blame” for the war.
The point is, what has the U.S. done, and what is it now doing, to promote or encourage a peaceful, rational, safe resolution to the conflict?
Not only has the U.S. done nothing in that regard, we have done the opposite! We have provoked further escalation of conflict all along, by orchestrating “regime change” with the Maidan coup, making declarations such as Hillary’s, that Putin is a dire threat to the world, arming the Ukrainians back in 2016 and enciting them to fight (as seen in the clip with McCain and fatboy) and rather than encouraging negotiation now, we are escalating it further by giving them more weapons and billions in cash.
Our leaders obviously want this war to continue, and we know from their track record with other foreign wars the U.S. has entered, the results are not everything they’re cracked up to be. But they do result quite consistently in war profits for them.

[jbecker]

I understand what you are saying, Liz. But what I do not understand is what the US could do “to promote or encourage a peaceful, rational, safe resolution to the conflict”.

In any negotiations the sides must be prepared to compromise. What compromise is it likely that Putin would accept? What concession is he likely to make? Not to swallow all of Ukraine? The US can feed part of Ukraine to Putin? The way Roosevelt fed Eastern Europe to Stalin?

I also don’t see how the US is profiting from the war. Arms manufacturers will, but the government will pay for the arms by going further into debt. And for that we all pay.

[jbecker]

I have just heard from a friend in the Czech Republic. He tells me that all Eastern European nations fear Russia now more than they fear being poor and cold (if Russia deprives them of gas). The Czechs are once again starting up an arms industry. (They were formerly great gun makers.) They know that there is no way to appease Putin. They look to NATO to protect them this time from the Russian predator.

The former USSR satellite countries’ fear is very real. Multitudes are alive who remember life under the boot of Communist Russia. And Russia has not changed. Does not change.

[Jeanne]

Blessings on your friend and all who fear Putin’s desire. Europe is preparing for war.

Unfortunately, it past the time when the US could have helped to keep all this from happening. Biden did not encourage compromise or reasoning, he said that Putin had to go, but he also said that a small incursion into Ukraine was acceptable.

Weak and stupid is how America appears to the world.

[jbecker]

There was never a time when the US could have “helped to keep all this from happening”.

Just by being president, Trump kept it from happening. So if you’re saying Trump should be perpetual president to keep Putin in check, then okay. He should be anyway.

[jbecker]

Yes, Europe is preparing for war.

[Liz]

Yes, negotiations would mean compromise, such as that Ukraine not join NATO, and remain a neutral buffer zone beween Russia and NATO countries.
That Russia, in return, withdraw from Ukraine, etc.
The people of the U.S. don’t profit from war - the government uses money we don’t have to pay for it.
It is the “public private partnership” between the government, military, and arms dealers which profit.
The arrangement Eisenhower warned us about, that’s been an ongoing racket since at least WW2.
They profit from the war itself, and from all the billions they then “invest” in the rebuilding, after the country we’re supposedly “saving” has been destroyed.

[jbecker]

Do I understand you correctly, Liz? -

All Putin wants is a promise from Ukraine not to join NATO?

Given that, Russia would withdraw from Ukraine? From all of it? Even the Crimea?

And the NATO powers are for the war because they profit from it and so that they can profit from rebuilding Ukraine?

[Liz]

No, I’m not saying thats “all” he wants. It was part of his proposals. We wouldn’t know what he would settle for unless we negotiated.
And I’m not saying all the NATO powers want is to profit. There are those who do, though.
Don’t you think it the least bit suspicious that the same people who got us into so many other failed foreign wars, who lied about Trump and his “collusion” with Russia, and who used Ukraine as a money laundering crony state, are the same ones now telling us Ukraine’s “democracy” is the most important issue of our time, and Putin is a menace to the world who must be defeated at all costs, no matter how many billions it requires, or how long it takes?

[jbecker]

Yes. It is suspicious. Why did the Biden gang rush so enthusiastically to support Ukraine against Russia? Because Ukraine was and can again be a fountain of cash for the Bidens? Because the Democrat Party developed a fierce antagonism toward Russia in 2016? But then - why that fierce antagonism? For a hundred years Democrats had nursed an admiration for Russia.

Of course the government of the US had no choice but to speak for and with NATO against Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. But the Biden gang does it with such passion.

Yes, it’s weird, and needs explanation.

[Jeanne]

I disagree. When Russia sent their troops to the border, that was the time to have stopped it with negotiations, with sanctions, with allied support.

[jbecker]

I envision a musical titled Foreign Affairs – only awaiting the right composer and librettist to be the hit of the Russia-Ukraine war season. Its theme song will be Negotiations – sung by a chorus of amateur geopoliticians at the beginning, at intervals throughout, and again – yearningly, nostalgically - at the inconclusive end.

“Negotiations” rhymes nicely with “conversations” – by which the Left mean their speeches to the nation, which must never be interrupted.

“Ukraine has the convenient rhyme of “pain”.

“Putin” is begging to be matched in a duet with “put out”.

I offer the idea free of charge to anyone who can and will realize the vision.

[Jeanne]

What a wry suggestion, Jillian.

Why is it that you believe that the way to stop a war is to escalate it? We each realize that there is no way to run back time to try a different tactic, but I still reason that the way to avoid a war is to actively work to stop it with some sort of reconciliations.

This is not some backwater conflict and the proxy promoters are not just tribal leaders. Why throw up all hands and declare that what must be, must be, so let’s go all the way with the war mongering. We are supposedly “civilized” nations of the 21st century, for Pete’s sake.

Or…we just roll over to allow Putin to bring on Dugin’s world wide blood bath.

Russian Philosopher Alexander Dugin: Russia Losing In Ukraine Would Mean The End Of The World

Since, Joe Biden failed to help halt the escalation, are we obligated to fight in Dugin’s “war for eternity?” Apparently, to help Ukraine and pretend that Zelenski is the good guy, that is what we must do. Is that what you believe, Jillian? Or do you have another solution?

[jbecker]

Quotations please. I cannot remember that I have ever in my long life said or written that “the way to stop a war is to escalate it”. I do not know what you mean by “escalate it”. As far as I know most wars stop when one side or the other wins.

I have never used the phrase “backwater conflict”. I have never called Putin or Zelensky a “tribal leader”.

I have not in connection with this war thrown up my hands and “declared what must be, must be”. I am not and have never been a war-monger. I have never said that Zelensky is “the good guy”. (I have said that Ukraine was not the invader - Putin was. I have said that both countries are nasty, both have horrid histories, both have Nazis. But only one was the invader.) ) Nor have I said that we must “fight in Dugin’s ‘war for eternity?’” (Dugin’s war?) I really would not think or say anything so absurd.

Where did you get all that from? You must be confusing me with someone else.

Have you ever been in a war? I have - several. As a reporter, not a fighter. I am against war but I know that history is fuller of war than of peace and that is unlikely to change.

You have a touching faith in “negotiation”. I have told you that there have been many negotiations over Ukraine. Many agreements. None of them have been honored.

You are enjoying being “testy” with me, I think. I will not use the word “insulting” though it would not be out of place. You are full of righteous indignation. But why make up absurd accusations against me? I am not responsible for the war.

What result of negotiations would you like to see? Describe the compromises, the final deal. What must Ukraine give up? How much of Ukraine can Putin take? I know you won’t do this, but I suggest you think about it before you next recommend negotiations or deplore that they didn’t take place when you think they should have.

Do you remember how Chamberlain negotiated peace with Hitler?

[Jeanne]

I was not implying that you were the we, but that the we was the West. The implications from your posts allow for others to assume that you feel this is a war that must be fought to end Putin’s desire to gather the old Soviet Union and rise it to the power position in Europe, and a strong power of the world.

You never used these words in my post, but to escalate the war, which you seem to approve in order to bring Putin down and stop his escalation of his a Dugin’s desire is implied in your posts.

I have no “touching faith” in negotiation, but to use it as a weapon to end this madness or to have ended it before it became a war that dragged others into it…for their own reasons…should have been done with great effort.

I am not being testy here, nor am I intending to insult you, Jillian. I am continuing this discussion about the war and why it is and what to do about it and how there is a real possibility of disaster from it. If you truly believe that there is no role for negotiations, compromise, sanctions, etc. then you have thrown up your hands and are accepting that the war must be, and there is no recourse to the disaster that could come.

You are taking too personally this discussion. I don’t understand the animus that you and Claire have been showing in your posts.

In my opinion, we must not have this war. It must be stopped by any means necessary, barring a world war. Putin has been pushed to considering and openly declaring the use of nuclear weapons.

How should the public know about what this “Ukraine thing” might really mean? Should we depend upon our corporate media and our president? Kudos to anyone brave enough to shovel the facts. Kudos to Carlson and Beck and others.

Is it just that we on the forum don’t understand each other? Are we not making ourselves clear? Do we agree on anything having to do with this war and its future path?

[jbecker]

You don’t seem to take in counter arguments. You just repeat the same case, keep recommending the same inapplicable formula.

There are sanctions against Russia. Easy to find on the internet:

"The United States and its allies have imposed sweeping sanctions, export controls, and other measures following the start of Russia’s war against Ukraine. Since February 2022, Treasury has implemented more than 2,500 sanctions in response to Russia’s war of choice."

There have been negotiations, ending in signed agreements, none of which have been honored. eg. the Minsk Agreements: Minsk agreements - Wikipedia.

It is pointless for an onlooker to say a war “must be stopped”. It is whistling down the wind.

And you do attribute opinions to me that I do not hold. I don’t even think in those terms, as I have told you.

I get it that you don’t like the war. Very commendable. You don’t like the US providing money and weapons to the victim country. You are entitled to that opinion. You are in sympathy with Carlson’s isolationist position. Even to that unreasonable opinion you are entitled.

But to be against the war and at the same time want America to be unaffected by it if it simply has nothing to do with it is a failure of understanding. Russia has imperial ambitions, is acting on them, and must be opposed. China has world-conquering ambitions, and must be opposed. Iran has nuclear war ambitions and must be opposed.

We are lucky that Ukrainian soldiers are fighting and dying and not American soldiers. That may not remain the case.

[jbecker]

If America chooses to do nothing against aggressive Russia, China, and Iran, it will no longer be a superpower. It will not only be resigning its position as THE superpower, it will not be a power in the world at all.

And yes, that EMP may be coming to us any moment now.

[Jeanne]

It should be the opinion of every nation that this war should not go forward. The sanctions that have not worked should be made worse. The ways around the sanctions should be eliminated. Again negotiations should be attempted.

I have not been against the weaponry and funding, but there has been little accountability and since we are depleting our own security capability it needs to dwindle, not escalate. The war was not “entered” by the US to be won, but to piddle around as usual in a sure to fail proxy conflict. I am against that type of war, but more I am against a world war and the temptation to use nukes on either side.

We and the world are being dragged into this thing for what? Everybody knows how this goes and it is disaster. Every single thing that can be done to avoid it should be done, again and again, whether it is compromise, negotiations, sanctions, bribery, trade-offs, assassinations, threats by the nations who are desperate to avoid this world war. It is worth trying again and again to stop this. Nobody is lucky in war that leads to the a world war.

As I wrote earlier, these are not tribal leaders in some back water, these are the major world players that are involved…and what they do matters greatly to the rest of the world. It is escalating and it must not be allowed to do so.

I am an onlooker, that is for sure, but so are most of the people and nations around the globe. That our leaders have seemingly deliberately brought this upon us is an absolute betrayal of the supposed civilization of the West.

I am not writing anything that you aren’t aware of and neither of us want the West to get into a world war. I am sincerely believing that what this is most is a betrayal. And I curse the administration which is responsible. This will not be a popular war if we fully join it. This might not be a war of ours at all, if we refuse to sacrifice for it anymore than we already have.

The West has fallen into the trap. I would rather they chew their own leg off to escape.

What should the US do? I don’t have the answers, although I know what I would have them do, which is everything and anything to avoid a world war. What do you believe the US and their allies should do? As the week leads us to an actual war, what should we do? What do you want them to do?